Mustang Forum

Technical & General Discussion Area => Tech Torque Pre 1973 => Topic started by: mod66 on December 06, 2017, 01:09:26 PM

Title: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: mod66 on December 06, 2017, 01:09:26 PM
Hi all

Car is a 66 Mustang coupe fully restored. It has a Winsor 347 stroker (roughly 4 years old) with fresh oil.

Its been off the road for a month or so as I just finished putting in a new Performance Automatic reverse manual C4 and a high stall (3500rpm) TCE torque converter. New trans cooler and obviously trans oil, coolant etc.

Went for a test drive yesterday. First 10 minutes of the drive were great, engine and gearbox very sweet and car very quick.

Once warmed up I went for a very hard run to really test it out and possible I may have over-revved. I had a quick glance at my Autometer tach (to which I stupidly had not yet set a rev limit on) and think I saw about 6000-6500rpm (which should be safe?).

Next set of lights horrible sounds coming from under car - it actually sounding like fluid bubbling and boiling to me so I limped the 2 minutes home at very low revs. When I popped the hood the drive belt (it has a gilmer drive) was completely off as the alternator bracket had come loose so I thought that was the sound. Tightened it up and this video is how it sounds.

https://youtu.be/q5BHXIKc9I4 (https://youtu.be/q5BHXIKc9I4)

I can't tell where the strange sound is coming from - whether it is engine or torque converter as it seems to be coming from everywhere at once. I tried listening with a screwdriver and the right hand side head is very loud compared to the left. But then you get under the car and it sounds even louder like its coming from the bottom rear of the engine or the bellhousing.

I took off the inspection plate in the bellhousing and no loose bits of metal in there, bolts to the torque converter and flexplate all still tight. I've drained the oil and can't see any metal shards or anything. What would be my next step?
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: barnett468 on December 06, 2017, 01:24:34 PM
.
Sounds like a rod knock or a rocker hitting a valve cover.

You can do the following if you want.

Remove one plug wire at a time while it is idling and see if the sound reduces noticeably, then replace the wire and try the one next to it. Continue this until you ave tried them all. If there is not a noticeable change in the sound it is likely not a rod or piston etc.

Remove the bolts from one valve cover at a time. Leave one bolt threaded in just a little. Start the engine then remove the bolt and lift the valve cover up around 1 mm and see if the sound changes.

With the engine off remove the valve cover and feel the rockers to see if any are loose.


Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: GLENN 70 on December 06, 2017, 01:32:03 PM
Hmm too hard to tell really . If it's not a rocker check the converter bolts . And I hate those belt set ups on high revving engines
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: mod66 on December 06, 2017, 08:19:11 PM
Thanks so far Ill take a look.
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: shaunp on December 06, 2017, 08:28:00 PM
Gillmer drives are crap, Is the oil pressure ok?
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: Clubman7 on December 06, 2017, 08:31:01 PM
Bent pushrod?
Weird rattling sound.
Sort of like the torque converter is loose or the flex plate.
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: PET-289 on December 06, 2017, 08:32:09 PM
Sounds like big ends to me........there is an easy way(expensive) and a hard way(not as expensive) to tell........the easy way is to take it for another hot lap and the rod in question should find its way out.... either through the block or the sump or  you could just remove the sump and see what has happened.
Let us know how you go.....
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: GLENN 70 on December 06, 2017, 09:46:23 PM
It's so loud it's hard to tell what it is . Check oil pressure . Check converter bolts and hope it's no flex plate bolts . Check balancer bolt . Rockers and push rods . Is it running fine ,no mis ? 
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: mod66 on December 07, 2017, 09:51:40 AM
Hey yes it is running fine, no miss and has power just making that very loud noise.

Also oil pressure is at nothing on the gauge. However it is the original 66 gauge which I don't trust, haven't upgraded it to an autometer yet.  I might buy one and check it directly from the engine bay.
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: shaunp on December 07, 2017, 10:10:40 AM
For sure check the oil pressure, Its not uncommon for a 347 to crack the block from the main bearing webs up into the cam bearings, then they spit the cam bearings out which then get tangled in the lifters, you will find it will have no oil pressure at idle and some at revs. They crack the web from the main bearing bolts which then fall into the sump
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: GLENN 70 on December 07, 2017, 10:21:17 AM
No oil pressure she's screwed .  Check the oil on the dip stick ,clean ,grey, black ,metal ? Oil filter will be full of crap also if it's stuffed the bottom end etc .
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: shaunp on December 07, 2017, 10:47:35 AM
A 347 in a ford block don't like high revs, particular if its roller cam block. They pretty much break in 1/2 sometimes
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: mod66 on December 07, 2017, 01:03:42 PM
Damn OK well I was going to do an oil pressure test then a compression test as I have both tools.
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: BAC on December 07, 2017, 06:44:04 PM
A 347 in a ford block don't like high revs, particular if its roller cam block. They pretty much break in 1/2 sometimes

I may be off beam here, but why would you want a 3500 stall converter in a 347 stroker?
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: GLENN 70 on December 07, 2017, 09:00:07 PM
Good question Brian ,why a 3500 rpm hi stall  converter in a 347 ? I have a 4000 rpm hi stall converter in my 347  :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:  :burnout: it helps to do that  :grin:
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: BAC on December 07, 2017, 09:14:37 PM
:burnout: it helps to do that

You need help to make skidmarks?   :lmao:
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: GLENN 70 on December 07, 2017, 09:26:34 PM
Skid marks ? No I don't leave skid marks  my washing machine does not allow that  :lmao:   Laying rubber is my thing  :burnout:
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: flatchat on December 07, 2017, 10:49:31 PM
One more time ! stroking an OEM 302W to 347 is a bad combo!-- spirited driving will split the block
If you desire big cubes from a small block start with  an after market block such as Dart, Brodix, World products etc
Talking OEM -- a 302 W is a stroked 289 W -330 you're pushing it and after that good luck
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: shaunp on December 08, 2017, 08:49:56 AM
One more time ! stroking an OEM 302W to 347 is a bad combo!-- spirited driving will split the block
If you desire big cubes from a small block start with  an after market block such as Dart, Brodix, World products etc
Talking OEM -- a 302 W is a stroked 289 W -330 you're pushing it and after that good luck

Agree, you need to be careful with them. So long as you don't rev them they are ok, you don't want to rev them much more than 6K if at all. The late model Roller blocks are the weakest they are very thin in the bores and main bearing webs are tiny, the best blocks are actually the early 289 blocks, they are by far the strongest, Glen 70 revs his just over 6k and has been doing that for years, but they need a good balance , main studs and a line bore. Revving them to 6500  they will often break the webs out and crack all the way to the cam bearing, you normally find the main bolts in the sump as they crack through the main bolt holes and the bolt just fall out. The best small block 8.2 deck engine is by far and away a 363, in an aftermarket block, these use a 3.4" stroke crank same as a 347 but a 4-1/8" bore, the bigger bore also un-shrouds the valves, and creates more air flow. The Dart blocks etc also have longer bore skirt to help stabilize the pistons on stroker engines , 4 bolt mains on the center 3, full thickness main webs. You can get Dart 302 block  to over 370 cube. The block may cost you $2800 but is money well spent. With a good 4340 rotating assembly you can lay into them as much as you want, and make some big number out of them as well. A 347 is ok for a quick cruiser but if you want drive them hard you need an aftermarket block.
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: mod66 on December 08, 2017, 09:38:30 AM
So far all Ive had time to do is change the oil and cut open the oil filter. No metal, all looks normal.

I ran it again with new oil & filter - and the sound is very loud (but not getting any louder) - its a rattling/knocking sound (imagine you put a bolt in a can and shook it) and I've isolated it to the very back bottom of the engine - its either the flexplate/torque converter or the bottom end of the engine right at the back.

Choice now is do I remove sump and take a look or go to hassle of dropping entire transmission and seeing what is going on in there (my reluctance stems from the fact I'm doing this on jack stands with a trolley jack and all the nice AN connections are tight and leak free).

The fact that I just put in a new trans, new torque converter and new flexplate makes me hopeful this could be non engine related and is something I've done wrong in the installation. What could I have missed? Its a custom torque converter from TCE (Prostreet/pro race version - over $1000) - I supplied the engine specs - does the torque converter need to be balanced or anything to the flexplate? All i did was bolt on the new flexplate which is decent (28oz SCAT SFI - which matches the 3 month old 28oz ROMAC balancer) to the engine, bolted the torque converter to the flexplate (4 bolts accessible via the inspection window) and slipped in the trans input shaft. Am I forgetting something? All the bolts are ARP and snugged up tight. 
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: mod66 on December 08, 2017, 09:49:11 AM
PART 2 - clearer sound from under the car

https://youtu.be/EH_TLpU9N_A (https://youtu.be/EH_TLpU9N_A)
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: GLENN 70 on December 08, 2017, 10:08:28 AM
Make sure the converter  bolts are not hitting the inspection plate area .  Sorry I just can't tell from that . It's just to noisy to tell what's going on .
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: mod66 on December 08, 2017, 11:13:18 AM
(https://s19.postimg.org/s81qf4qwv/IMG_5053.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/s81qf4qwv/)
(https://s19.postimg.org/jpsab32hb/IMG_5056.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/jpsab32hb/)
(https://s19.postimg.org/44ayqv3b3/IMG_5799.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/44ayqv3b3/)

Just thought of something - the green one is the new TC, the black the old. AS you can see the old one has threaded bolts coming out of it that slot into the flexplate then you do a nut up through the inspection window. With the new one it was supplied with those 4 black bolts you can see. I took those out and inserted them through the inspection window so that head snugs up against the flexplate, and it threads through the flexplate and through the TC. There is no nuts on the back of the new TC. Is that all correct? No drain holes either on new TC.
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: shaunp on December 08, 2017, 11:21:27 AM
Does the noise change when its in gear?
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: lukep6470 on December 08, 2017, 12:25:07 PM
OK so let's get a check list going:

Engine

Oil was clean
Oil Filter was clean
Engine seems to be running OK just noisy?
Is the engine running as smoothly as before.
How do the spark plugs look?
Is it possible the flexplate has come loose?
Can you possibly cause a clunk by hand cranking the engine (breaker bar on front crankshaft bolt)?

Transmission
Converter bolts are tight.
Does it still engage drive OK?
Does it change gears OK?
Does it shudder?

It is starting to look like disassemble time!!
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: GLENN 70 on December 08, 2017, 12:46:45 PM
When converter bolts hit it's a heck of a noise .
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: mcarnage59 on December 08, 2017, 01:23:14 PM
OK so let's get a check list going:

Engine

Oil was clean
Oil Filter was clean
Engine seems to be running OK just noisy?
Is the engine running as smoothly as before.
How do the spark plugs look?
Is it possible the flexplate has come loose?
Can you possibly cause a clunk by hand cranking the engine (breaker bar on front crankshaft bolt)?

Transmission
Converter bolts are tight.
Does it still engage drive OK?
Does it change gears OK?
Does it shudder?

It is starting to look like disassemble time!!
What was the end result regarding oil pressure. Originally op said no reading. Has it been confirmed?
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: boofhead on December 08, 2017, 03:15:06 PM
347's are not inherently bad but you need to make sure
1 the block is prepared correctly, eg  line bored and decked.
2 the clearances are spot on crank straight and balanced correctly
3 the tune is right on

this really applies to all builds.
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: barnett468 on December 08, 2017, 03:56:17 PM
Choice now is do I remove sump and take a look or go to hassle of dropping entire transmission and seeing what is going on in there.

Yes that is definitely the best thing to do instead of what I suggested.  :thud:

Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: barnett468 on December 08, 2017, 04:04:17 PM
.
Of course you checked the fitment of the converter nose in the end of the crank and the trans end play to insure the converter wouldn't force the crank into the thrust bearing if the converter baloons out at higher revs.

Also, by all means, don't buy around an 18" long screwdriver for $4.00 from cheap parts and use it as a stethoscope to try and locate more specifically where the sound is coming from.



Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: barnett468 on December 08, 2017, 04:08:59 PM
One more time ! stroking an OEM 302W to 347 is a bad combo!-- spirited driving will split the block

There are thousands of them running in the US with no issues but they aren't revving 7,000 rpm or have 500 hp.

Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: GLENN 70 on December 08, 2017, 04:15:22 PM
My own 347 has been running strong and hard for about 7 years now . I try and keep the revs to about 6100 rpm but it has seen 6500 - 6800 rpm plenty of times . No bang yet  :grin: . I'm still thinking its a converter problem in yours ,as it still runs fine . You need to go buy a oil pressure gauge and hook it up .
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: mod66 on December 08, 2017, 04:20:53 PM
Yes that is definitely the best thing to do instead of what I suggested.  :thud:

Argh I'm getting there - still have your suggestions written down and Im going through each point. Between work, kids and wife though my brain is getting scattered  :cry:
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: barnett468 on December 08, 2017, 04:30:24 PM
Argh I'm getting there - still have your suggestions written down and Im going through each point. Between work, kids and wife though my brain is getting scattered  :cry:

...and Christmas too.

My point being that yanking it apart is the last thing to do because you can no longer start it to determine where the noise is coming from if you don't find something obvious by taking it apart.

If you do take it apart, I would probably start by removing the trans and torque converter, then bolting the bell housing back on so you can bolt the starter back up then start it. This will definitively determine if it is the engine or the trans...unless of course both make noise.

If you are 110% positive there was zero metal in the engine, it is highly unlikely it is an engine problem. I usually drag a magnet thru the oil to see if there i steel then look at it in the light to see if it has a rainbow look which is typically aluminum floating near the top.

After hearing the noise on the latest video, I can at least tell you that it definitely is not a loose rocker or bent valve.

Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: barnett468 on December 08, 2017, 04:38:42 PM
My own 347 has been running strong and hard for about 7 years now . I try and keep the revs to about 6100 rpm but it has seen 6500 - 6800 rpm plenty of times . No bang yet  :grin:.

ummm...no bang yet EXCEPT for your torque converter.  :lmao:
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: mod66 on December 08, 2017, 04:45:25 PM
OK thanks - lets work through these steps.

Step 1 - hooked up mechanical oil pressure gauge - 50psi at idle, climing to 65psi at 2500rpm (didnt want to rev higher). Incidentally motor sounds very strong and revs freely despite the rattle.
Step 2 - all TC to flexplate bolts are tight.

I shall update as I go.


Incidentally I rung TCE and played them the video - they have never heard that noise before, they dont think its the TC and they said the way I bolted it up is correct. They said it is balanced too. They are quite helpful and said to call them when I find out what it is.
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: barnett468 on December 08, 2017, 04:47:18 PM
.
You could also try this in your crankcase to see if it quiets down.  :bolt:


.................................(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTwu1Wm1eheC2I8pxywCEKeANyaikfaqNBZSzUCGHt0kK3-1-yZ)
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: mod66 on December 08, 2017, 05:18:23 PM
Step 1 - hooked up mechanical oil pressure gauge - 50psi at idle, climing to 65psi at 2500rpm (didnt want to rev higher). Incidentally motor sounds very strong and revs freely despite the rattle.
Step 2 - all TC to flexplate bolts are tight.

Step 3 - took rocker covers off, one screw at a time like you said - no change in sound, cant see any damage.
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: mod66 on December 08, 2017, 05:20:46 PM
OK so let's get a check list going:

Engine

Oil was clean
Oil Filter was clean
Engine seems to be running OK just noisy?
Is the engine running as smoothly as before.
How do the spark plugs look?
Is it possible the flexplate has come loose?
Can you possibly cause a clunk by hand cranking the engine (breaker bar on front crankshaft bolt)?

Transmission
Converter bolts are tight.
Does it still engage drive OK?
Does it change gears OK?
Does it shudder?

It is starting to look like disassemble time!!

Engine

Oil was clean - YES
Oil Filter was clean - YES
Engine seems to be running OK just noisy?  CORRECT
Is the engine running as smoothly as before. - YES
How do the spark plugs look? - NORMAL
Is it possible the flexplate has come loose? - POSSIBLE BUT CANT GET TO THOSE BOLTS WITHOUT DROPPING TRANS. DOSNT APPEAR LOOSE THOUGH
Can you possibly cause a clunk by hand cranking the engine (breaker bar on front crankshaft bolt)? - NO NOISE WHEN TURN WITH BREAKER BAR

Transmission
Converter bolts are tight.  - YES
Does it still engage drive OK?  YES
Does it change gears OK?  - YES
Does it shudder?  NO

Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: GLENN 70 on December 08, 2017, 05:21:29 PM
Yes Barnett ,the converter that was made in the USA
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: mod66 on December 08, 2017, 05:22:56 PM
Does the noise change when its in gear?

Nope
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: GLENN 70 on December 08, 2017, 05:25:01 PM
Ok have a look at the ring gear/ flex plate for any marks in the teeth . Make sure the starter motor is not hitting the teeth on the flex plate . Cracked flex plate ?  Oil pump pick up fallen off , you must get an oil pressure gauge to see if it has oil pressure . Even if you buy a cheapy .
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: barnett468 on December 08, 2017, 06:00:05 PM
Step 3 - took rocker covers off, one screw at a time like you said - no change in sound, cant see any damage.

I guess you missed my post above.

After hearing the noise on the latest video, I can at least tell you that it definitely is not a loose rocker or bent valve.

Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: barnett468 on December 08, 2017, 06:01:57 PM
Yes Barnett ,the converter that was made in the USA

Sorry, no comprendo.  :lmao:
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: GLENN 70 on December 08, 2017, 06:25:13 PM
Ok Barnett . Made in the United States of America . USA .  You know , where mr Trump lives  :lmao: :lmao:  :cry:
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: barnett468 on December 08, 2017, 07:14:41 PM
Ok Barnett . Made in the United States of America . USA .  You know , where mr Trump lives  :lmao: :lmao:  :cry:

Que?  :lmao:
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: barnett468 on December 08, 2017, 07:18:53 PM
Step 1 - hooked up mechanical oil pressure gauge - 50psi at idle, climing to 65psi at 2500rpm (didnt want to rev higher).

...you must get an oil pressure gauge to see if it has oil pressure .

ummm...hey GLENNN...what's it like to be SENILE?  :lmao:
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: Dwayne on December 08, 2017, 07:25:49 PM
ummm...hey GLENNN...what's it like to be SENILE?  :lmao:

Have you forgotten again Barney?
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: HAMBURGLAR on December 08, 2017, 08:27:34 PM
What about the starter not disengaging all the way and hitting the flex plate intermittently . I had this problem in an XA coupe and it sounded similar ,  like tapping the sump with a ball hammer.
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: mod66 on December 08, 2017, 08:39:09 PM
What about the starter not disengaging all the way and hitting the flex plate intermittently . I had this problem in an XA coupe and it sounded similar ,  like tapping the sump with a ball hammer.

I was looking in there with a torch whilst it was running and it looked like it had clearance but I'll check again to make sure
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: GLENN 70 on December 08, 2017, 11:21:37 PM
Hey Barnes I don't read everything ,neither do you buddy .  :elefant:
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: mod66 on December 09, 2017, 03:22:59 PM
Of course you checked the fitment of the converter nose in the end of the crank and the trans end play to insure the converter wouldn't force the crank into the thrust bearing if the converter baloons out at higher revs.

Can you explain this a bit more?
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: barnett468 on December 09, 2017, 03:33:31 PM
Have you forgotten again Barney?

ummm...forgotten what?  :lmao:

Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: mod66 on December 09, 2017, 04:27:48 PM
Is it safe to undo the 4 flexplate to TC bolts and start the engine?
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: birdman on December 09, 2017, 04:58:03 PM
Is it safe to undo the 4 flexplate to TC bolts and start the engine?

Now you are asking for trouble...  :thud:
Just pull the box out...
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: barnett468 on December 09, 2017, 06:36:41 PM
Is it safe to undo the 4 flexplate to TC bolts and start the engine?

Well, that can be done if the converter moves back away from the flexplate by at least 5 mm, however, you would want the front of the car up at least a little so the converter doesn't slide forward into the flex plate which shouldn't be a problem, however, the nose of the flexplate will then likely be rubbing on the inside of the crank so you wouldn't want to run it for more than maybe 5 seconds but that should be long enough to hear the noise anyway. If you do this and I am not suggesting you do, make sure the converter turns freely by hand before you start the engine.

Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: mod66 on December 10, 2017, 10:01:10 AM
- TC to flexplate bolts undone, TC moved back a little and started. Still makes sound - rules out TC and gearbox. (Could still be flexplate to crank though)
- Removed spark plug leads one by one and sound did not change.
- Removed starter motor and all good.

Next step, sump.
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: GLENN 70 on December 10, 2017, 10:39:52 AM
Does the engine have a windage tray ? Baffled sump ? . It's running fine ,plugs like good ,good oil pressure ,idle is good . Cracked flex plate ? Even tho Windsors don't crack them very often ,unlike Chevys . Front pulleys are are clear ? I'm running out of ideas  :cry:
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: barnett468 on December 10, 2017, 11:34:21 AM
TC to flexplate bolts undone, TC moved back a little and started. Still makes sound - rules out TC and gearbox.

(Could still be flexplate to crank though)

1. you looked to make certain the torque converter was not spinning with the crank?

2. that is nearly impossible, but just look at the front of it to see if there are any heavy gouges.

pretty much sounds like what i first thought but the plug wire test will hopefully narrow it down to the specific cylinder that is affected if it is a rod or a piston.

Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: barnett468 on December 10, 2017, 11:35:21 AM
I'm running out of ideas  :cry:

That's no surprise.   :leaving:
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: BAC on December 10, 2017, 11:36:42 AM
- Removed starter motor and all good.

So just clarifying: noise was still there with starter motor removed?
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: Bucks on December 10, 2017, 12:22:39 PM
Watched a video the other day about american race sumps being made in china and the baffles come out and cause all sorts of nasty noises.
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: barnett468 on December 10, 2017, 01:07:03 PM
Watched a video the other day about american race sumps being made in china and the baffles come out and cause all sorts of nasty noises.

Sadly, it seems that most things that used to be made in the US are now made "overseas". This does not mean that the can't make xlnt products overseas however, it just seems that many of the ones being made are not made well and we will rarely know exactly why that is. Keep in mind that China also makes maybe 90% of the cranks, rods, and pistons that EVERYONE is using in their stroker engine builds, and those work just fine if the engine is PROPERLY built.

Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: barnett468 on December 10, 2017, 01:09:56 PM
So just clarifying: noise was still there with starter motor removed?

He would have had to remove the starter while the engine was running to determine this which seems highly unlikely that he did.
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: mod66 on December 10, 2017, 03:10:56 PM
So just clarifying: noise was still there with starter motor removed?

Yes checked starter and it is not starter. I did this by undoing the lower bolt and pulling it away from the bellhousing with motor running. Made no difference to anything. Also took starter completely out and tested/inspected. A OK.

Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: mod66 on December 10, 2017, 03:12:39 PM
Took drive belt completely off and started. Same noise.
1. you looked to make certain the torque converter was not spinning with the crank?

2. that is nearly impossible, but just look at the front of it to see if there are any heavy gouges.

pretty much sounds like what i first thought but the plug wire test will hopefully narrow it down to the specific cylinder that is affected if it is a rod or a piston.



1) Yes 100% I had a helper and he said TC did not move at all. Plug wire test, no sound change at all.

Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: mod66 on December 10, 2017, 03:20:28 PM
OK got sump off (took 3 hours as previous owner decided to superglue it/silicone it on with about 3 tonnes of the hardest substance known to man...)

Anyway no metal in pan, no dents or scratches on pan. Looking up from below engine internals look great, you can see high quality parts in there - no burrs/dents etc. everything is nice and tight and not making any sounds when cranking by hand.

Now when looking up you can see the back of the bolt holes that connect the flexplate to the engine. There are 6 holes. I managed to thread a small piece of wire in there and measure the depth of the hole to the end of the flexplate bolts. 5 measure about 10mm, one hole measures about 25mm depth and looks like it may even go all the way through. Theory now is that bolt has come undone/snapped off and is making the noise by flying around stuck between the flexplate and the TC. Lets put it at 80% sure.

So I have to get to it so I need to drop the transmission or is it easier to lift up and swing the engine forward to get to it?

 
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: barnett468 on December 10, 2017, 03:23:12 PM
Took drive belt completely off and started. Same noise.
1) Yes 100% I had a helper and he said TC did not move at all. Plug wire test, no sound change at all.

you tested all 8 wires?
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: barnett468 on December 10, 2017, 03:28:31 PM
Theory now is that bolt has come undone/snapped off and is making the noise by flying around stuck between the flexplate and the TC. Lets put it at 80% sure.

It most likely would have fallen out when you moved the converter back or at least to the bottom where you could possibly see it, plus you shuld have heard it when you rotated the converter by hand to insure it was free.

You do not need to remove the trans. Just unbolt the drive shaft and the trans and slide it rearward on a floor jack around 50 mm.

Did you feel all the rods to see if any felt loose?
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: lukep6470 on December 11, 2017, 11:47:04 AM
Hi,

It just occurred to me that you are getting under the car with the engine running.  I hope you are not just trusting Supercheap Axle stands with no backup to keep you alive.  There has been a spate of people crushed under there classic cars in the last few years.
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: mod66 on December 11, 2017, 01:10:09 PM
It most likely would have fallen out when you moved the converter back or at least to the bottom where you could possibly see it, plus you shuld have heard it when you rotated the converter by hand to insure it was free.

You do not need to remove the trans. Just unbolt the drive shaft and the trans and slide it rearward on a floor jack around 50 mm.

Did you feel all the rods to see if any felt loose?

Ok thanks and yes checked rods - no movement up and down, a tiny bit side to side but I believe that is normal.
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: mod66 on December 11, 2017, 01:10:54 PM
Hi,

It just occurred to me that you are getting under the car with the engine running.  I hope you are not just trusting Supercheap Axle stands with no backup to keep you alive.  There has been a spate of people crushed under there classic cars in the last few years.

Yeah just axle stands (albeit heavy duty ones) and yes you are 100% correct, good reminder.
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: unilec5544 on December 11, 2017, 08:25:11 PM
I don't know how you would check it unless you take it apart, but could be timing chain. You have taken the tappet covers off and check the valve train, so have you rotated the engine and checked to see if all the valves are opening to the same height.
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: shaunp on December 11, 2017, 09:15:50 PM
 You've checked the balancer and pulleys right?
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: mod66 on December 12, 2017, 08:08:30 AM
Guys I'm dropping the tranny. Halfway there and will update the thread with what I find.
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: mod66 on December 12, 2017, 07:52:57 PM
OK so tranny is out! Second time round only took 1 hour unlike a month first go.

Anyway below picture is exactly what I found when I lowered away tranny. As you can see one bolt is all the way out. What you cant see is the 5 others were all finger tight. Note the oil striations that you can see starbursting out of the loose bolts from the crankcase.

(https://s19.postimg.org/hk7of579v/IMG_5886.jpg)

This is the damage it did to the $1300 torque converter. Luckily its just a rub mark - no doubt this was the noise. 

(https://s19.postimg.org/8cffygfn7/IMG_5883.jpg)

Front pump and input shaft look like they survived unscathed

(https://s19.postimg.org/80xzli4ab/IMG_5889.jpg)

Flexplate is a brand new SCAT - check out this bolt hole - no doubt damaged by the vibration. Even though its a small nick I'm going to go with another new flexplate. $100 loss but I'm not dropping this tranny again. You will also note there is no reinforcement plate installed (I bought one today for $20).

(https://s19.postimg.org/clk60n61v/IMG_5894.jpg)

(https://s19.postimg.org/yxhyu1sb7/IMG_5893.jpg)

Now these bolts were ARP - I measured the under head length (UHL) as .680 inches. The ARP part number is 200-2902 which most websites such as Summit list for both Chev and Ford small block. Now when I measure the actual hole in the crank it is .823" long. You then need to add thickness of flexplate and reinforcement plate which means you need an actual UHL of 1.077" (lets call it 1"). Fortunately ARP make this and it is part 200-2802

So I think the failure was a mix of no threadlocker, inadequate torque and insufficient bolt length.

Incidentally bottom end looks good to me.

(https://s19.postimg.org/oao5olpar/IMG_5887.jpg)

Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: shaunp on December 13, 2017, 09:33:41 AM
On most cranks the bolts go into the engine  all the way through the crank I glue them in to stop any oil leaking past them.
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: shaunp on December 13, 2017, 09:39:29 AM
Also the slot in 1 bolt hole is normal that's how they are
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: lukep6470 on December 13, 2017, 11:13:41 AM
You need to use at least mid strength threadlocker (Blue) and I think it is 80ft/lb.  Which means you will need someone on the front crank bolt to hold the engine still while you torque it up. 

Don't just use a rattle gun which I've seen some workshops do.
Title: Re: Need help! Think I've done some kind of damage - VIDEO of noise
Post by: barnett468 on December 13, 2017, 12:47:56 PM
.

You should have at least 8 mm from the end of a bolt to the bottom of a blind threaded hole.