Author Topic: Overcoming inherent understeer  (Read 1796 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline barnett468

  • Shelby
  • *********
  • Posts: 6712
Re: Overcoming inherent understeer
« Reply #50 on: April 14, 2019, 12:55:16 AM »
Did the drop and welded the old holes up.
Must of been made that way.

 That's brilliant. :lmao:

Offline barnett468

  • Shelby
  • *********
  • Posts: 6712
Re: Overcoming inherent understeer
« Reply #51 on: April 14, 2019, 12:57:13 AM »
I would settle for an improvement, but if you are saying that the Shelby drop is the only possible way, then I think I will just have to accept for the time being. I am still convinced that this sort of vehicle modification is considered major in Australia and it would have to be done with engineering certification.

Stiffer sway bars and stiff springs and lowering the car will improve cornering by reducing the body roll but they have zero affect on steering geometry.

Guessing at whether the mod needs certification or not is absolutely pointless.


Offline fredm666

  • Worked
  • ***
  • Posts: 219
  • hoping for the best but expecting the worst
  • Location: Sydney
  • Name: federico
  • Car: 1964-1/2, D-code
Re: Overcoming inherent understeer
« Reply #52 on: April 14, 2019, 08:42:14 AM »
In the event such a modification was done to the car, without engineering certification and if the car is in a wreck, do you think there is much chance of the authorities and assessor going over the car, taking measurements and doing checks? I think all they would have to do is go back over what was OEM and compare. Like I said... Insurance companies would wipe you if such a mod was done illegally and I even think you could be in trouble with the law if they deemed the illegal modification done to the car was a contributing factor to an accident.

probably these could help you, if you are in NSW or VIC:
https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/documents/roads/safety-rules/standards/vsi-06-light-vehicle-modifications.pdf
https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/registration/vehicle-modifications-and-defects/vehicle-modifications/vass-approval-certificate

if the Shelby drop kit is considered a suspension modification probably it does not need an engineer certificate
fred

Offline Clubman7

  • Worked
  • ***
  • Posts: 410
  • On the road.
  • Location: Mornington Peninsula
  • Name: Brett
Re: Overcoming inherent understeer
« Reply #53 on: April 14, 2019, 09:13:29 AM »
Mines been converted to right hand drive so it “must of been done during the conversion process”.

Offline barnett468

  • Shelby
  • *********
  • Posts: 6712
Re: Overcoming inherent understeer
« Reply #54 on: April 14, 2019, 10:49:06 AM »
Examples requiring certification:

Any modification to the suspension configuration.
Fabrication of suspension mounting points.


Examples not requiring certification:

Modification of suspension with components or parts which meet or exceed the original vehicle manufacturer’s specifications.

Well, that is as clear as mud.  :thud:


Looks like it would be helpful to get a copy of this:

"To make it clear to vehicle owners and modifiers when a modified vehicle requires a compliance certificate, a new legal document has been developed. The document, the Vehicle Safety Compliance Certification Scheme Declaration of Modification or Class of Modification Order 2013 (the Order) contains a list of modifications that require certification."

.

Offline Tarheel

  • Worked
  • ***
  • Posts: 268
Re: Overcoming inherent understeer
« Reply #55 on: April 14, 2019, 11:09:49 AM »
Sorry but I think you're being way over cautious.  If we were talking about a car only a few years old that you'd owned from new then maybe (and just maybe) there could be a tiny risk.  For a 50+ year old car that typically would have had several owners in its lifetime (some/all based in another country) there is no way they could reasonably conclude that you either (a) did the mod or (b) even knew about it, let alone prove it was a contributing factor in any accident.  Then there is the fact that the mod in question is something that was done from the factory on certain variants of the car (Shelbys). 

By your reasoning, all the original style suspension components you've already changed over for improved modern parts may be enough modification to warrant an engineer's certificate to avoid potential problems with insurance anyway. 

I have had experience of the insurance claims assessment process a few times over the years and never have they done anything more than request quotes for the repairs - no insurance company assessor visits, no forensic analysis of what may have caused the accident. 

But at the end of the day it's your car and your conscience, just offering my 2c worth...

I recently did the disc brake conversion and with all the confusion about engineering certification, I contacted the Dept of Transport. The solid answer from them was "absolutely" the car had to be inspected and certified after the conversion was done. Keep in mind that this was an improvement to the braking system and it was also an option on the cars back then.
I also have the feeling that classic car insurance companies and assessors frequent forums like this and get involved in various car clubs. I'm sure they would know what goes on...
But no worries, I'm cool with whatever you guys do to your cars.
I feel this has drifted away from the original topic anyway and feel a new thread should be started.


Offline barnett468

  • Shelby
  • *********
  • Posts: 6712
Re: Overcoming inherent understeer
« Reply #56 on: April 14, 2019, 11:20:26 AM »
Hey, no problem... I'm cool with whatever you guys do to your cars.
I recently did the disc brake conversion and with all the confusion about engineering certification, I contacted the Dept of Transport. The solid answer from them was "absolutely" the car had to be inspected and certified after the conversion was done. Keep in mind that this was an improvement to the braking system and it was also an option on the cars back then.

It absolutely does NOT have to be inspected if you use the oem type parts that were designed for the model you have instead of aftermarket parts, because the oem parts were designed specifically for the vehicle and aftermarket ones are not.

"Fitting of disc or drum brakes that are not a manufacturer’s option for that series. Example requiring certification:

Replacement of front-wheel drum brakes with disc brakes on a vehicle not optionedwith front disc brakes by the manufacturer eg fitting disc brakes from a VT model Commodore to a base model LC Torana originally fitted with drum front brakes.


Example not requiring certification:

Replacement of front-wheel drum brakes with disc brakes on a vehicle available from the manufacturer with front disc brakes as an option where all the parts from that option are fitted eg fitting a base model LC Torana which has drum front brakes with the disc front brakes originally supplied to the GTR model LC Torana."

.

Offline fredm666

  • Worked
  • ***
  • Posts: 219
  • hoping for the best but expecting the worst
  • Location: Sydney
  • Name: federico
  • Car: 1964-1/2, D-code
Re: Overcoming inherent understeer
« Reply #57 on: April 14, 2019, 11:29:29 AM »
I recently did the disc brake conversion and with all the confusion about engineering certification, I contacted the Dept of Transport. The solid answer from them was "absolutely" the car had to be inspected and certified after the conversion was done. Keep in mind that this was an improvement to the braking system and it was also an option on the cars back then.

Well, depends also who you speak to in the Department.... I called 3 times the NSW Dept. of Transport when I moved to Sydney regarding the tail-lights/rear indicators, I spoke with three different guys and they gave me three different answers.... taken individually each of them was a "solid" answer.
fred

Offline GLENN 70

  • GT 500
  • *********
  • Posts: 8276
  • Location: Gold Coast .
Re: Overcoming inherent understeer
« Reply #58 on: April 14, 2019, 11:53:02 AM »
Hold on  Barny how do you know about a VT commodore or a LC torana or a  torana GTR  😂  Aussie Aussie Aussie 😂😂😂😂

Offline BAC

  • Blue Printed
  • ****
  • Posts: 1891
  • Location: Melbourne
  • Name: Brian
  • Car: '71 M code auto
Re: Overcoming inherent understeer
« Reply #59 on: April 14, 2019, 12:29:13 PM »
It absolutely does NOT have to be inspected if you use the oem type parts that were designed for the model you have instead of aftermarket parts, because the oem parts were designed specifically for the vehicle and aftermarket ones are not.
:agree: In the muddy waters of vehicle modifications, this much has been confirmed by anyone in the industry I've spoken to.  So you can fit disc brakes to a car that had drums provided they were available as an option on that model and you use OEM or equivalent parts to do so.  Effectively you are just optioning up the vehicle, just 50 years later...

Shelby drop is slightly more contentious, but for me the fact that it was done by the factory on some models would be enough to argue the car was still within OEM specs.
Cheers,
Brian

Offline barnett468

  • Shelby
  • *********
  • Posts: 6712
Re: Overcoming inherent understeer
« Reply #60 on: April 15, 2019, 10:35:50 AM »
Hold on  Barny how do you know about a VT commodore or a LC torana or a  torana GTR  😂  Aussie Aussie Aussie 😂😂😂😂

I don't, that is just what I copied from the aussie regs.  :thumb:

Offline barnett468

  • Shelby
  • *********
  • Posts: 6712
Re: Overcoming inherent understeer
« Reply #61 on: April 15, 2019, 10:39:11 AM »

Shelby drop is slightly more contentious, but for me the fact that it was done by the factory on some models would be enough to argue the car was still within OEM specs.

My "guess" which is useless, is that they could say, "Yes, it is production on a Shelby only, so if you have a Shelby then you can do the drop.", but obviously, if you have a Shelby, you do not need to do the drop cuz it already has it.

The key word in the info they posted regarding suspension changes is "configuration", so one needs to get clarification as to whether lowering the upper arm mounting points would be considered changing the configuration" or not. It definitely changes the suspension "geometry", and if they had use that word, it would be clear exactly what the rule was, but I guess,"This is the land of oz."


Offline Reborn67

  • Thoroughbred
  • **
  • Posts: 198
  • Location: Newcastle
  • Name: Andrew
  • Car: 67 Hardtop
Re: Overcoming inherent understeer
« Reply #62 on: April 15, 2019, 10:51:39 AM »
  Configuration..., Geometry,      It comes down to one's interpretation, and that is where the problem arises...,

Offline trav68

  • Worked
  • ***
  • Posts: 206
Re: Overcoming inherent understeer
« Reply #63 on: April 15, 2019, 11:20:50 AM »
Think below section from National Code of Practice is the relevant section (or atleast would be in WA). I would agree that this modification “should” have an engineering sign-off which would be pretty straight forward given it is essentially a verified factory modification provided workmanship was acceptable (i.e same hole size, any fasteners replaced equivalent grade are used…)

NCOP11 Section LS Suspension and Steering V2.1 15Nov2015

Given you stated it is purely road usage, I am surprised you cannot get an acceptable setup with your rebuilt setup (MOOG paired with decent shocks and springs) and a good alignment.

Offline shaunp

  • GT 500
  • *********
  • Posts: 8375
  • Location: Brisbane
Re: Overcoming inherent understeer
« Reply #64 on: April 15, 2019, 05:34:53 PM »
Holden did on XU1's first then, Later with bigger sway bars they called it RTS Radial tuned suspension on all models

Offline Tarheel

  • Worked
  • ***
  • Posts: 268
Re: Overcoming inherent understeer
« Reply #65 on: April 15, 2019, 11:10:15 PM »
Given you stated it is purely road usage, I am surprised you cannot get an acceptable setup with your rebuilt setup (MOOG paired with decent shocks and springs) and a good alignment.
I'm hoping that with an alignment and steering adjustment at a shop who does old cars will make the world of difference.

Offline shaunp

  • GT 500
  • *********
  • Posts: 8375
  • Location: Brisbane
Re: Overcoming inherent understeer
« Reply #66 on: April 16, 2019, 10:49:40 AM »
I'm hoping that with an alignment and steering adjustment at a shop who does old cars will make the world of difference.

Only if they use the specs we have quoted

Offline Dwayne

  • Blue Printed
  • ****
  • Posts: 1340
  • Location: Radelaide
  • Name: Dwayne
Re: Overcoming inherent understeer
« Reply #67 on: April 16, 2019, 10:59:35 AM »
Only if they use the specs we have quoted

Think he said that Suspension Dynamics were going to do the alignment.

Offline shaunp

  • GT 500
  • *********
  • Posts: 8375
  • Location: Brisbane
Re: Overcoming inherent understeer
« Reply #68 on: April 16, 2019, 01:29:48 PM »
If its going to Suspension Dynamics, just tell them fix it, they can do a shelby drop they do it all the time on Falcons and mustangs etc. Just let them fix it and pay them what they ask.

Offline Tarheel

  • Worked
  • ***
  • Posts: 268
Re: Overcoming inherent understeer
« Reply #69 on: April 16, 2019, 05:27:34 PM »
If its going to Suspension Dynamics, just tell them fix it, they can do a shelby drop they do it all the time on Falcons and mustangs etc. Just let them fix it and pay them what they ask.
I am trying to hold off on the Shelby drop for the time being. If I get them to do it, I would want them to be able to issue a mod plate for it. The other guys on here are welcome to do what they want, but I would want a mod plate on mine if it get's done. I think Ross was alluding to the Shelby drop and the cost being around $1K to do.
At this stage, I will just get the alignment done and steering box adjusted.
I already feel a tremendous difference with the new tyres and 1" sway bar.

Offline shaunp

  • GT 500
  • *********
  • Posts: 8375
  • Location: Brisbane
Re: Overcoming inherent understeer
« Reply #70 on: April 16, 2019, 08:49:18 PM »
I am trying to hold off on the Shelby drop for the time being. If I get them to do it, I would want them to be able to issue a mod plate for it. The other guys on here are welcome to do what they want, but I would want a mod plate on mine if it get's done. I think Ross was alluding to the Shelby drop and the cost being around $1K to do.
At this stage, I will just get the alignment done and steering box adjusted.
I already feel a tremendous difference with the new tyres and 1" sway bar.

Just call Earl Gillcrest he is just down the road, also at Capalaba, if you want a mod plate, why not call him and ask what he thinks, Earl did the mod plate for my car when I converted mine to RHD, and changed the brakes no issue. He will tell you if it needs it or not. 0417229723. Earl is a great bloke, he is often in Tassy though he flys down to engineer cars down there as well.  He is a lovely  guy and very reasonable cost for mod plates, but he knows his stuff.  I think his business is called Autotechnica, he is a local Wynnum bloke.

Offline barnett468

  • Shelby
  • *********
  • Posts: 6712
Re: Overcoming inherent understeer
« Reply #71 on: April 17, 2019, 12:26:43 AM »
I am trying to hold off on the Shelby drop for the time being. If I get them to do it, I would want them to be able to issue a mod plate for it. The other guys on here are welcome to do what they want, but I would want a mod plate on mine if it get's done. I think Ross was alluding to the Shelby drop and the cost being around $1K to do.
At this stage, I will just get the alignment done and steering box adjusted.
I already feel a tremendous difference with the new tyres and 1" sway bar.

Xlnt, yeah, just lower profile wider tires and a bigger sway bar are the 2 things that make the most noticeable improvement on these. Any alignment will only make a small change providing the alignment is not way out of spec now but it still should be done.

One other thing you should consider is installing a shelby shock tower brace and/or a rallye bar, because the stiffer the suspension gets, the more the body flexes.

 

Visit Custom Mustangs