RRS coil overs - 1970

[Husky65]

Well mate if you are thinking ahead, do it once do it properly. Go the full TCP setup.

[shaunp]

Cheers mate. Just trying to get as much info as possible.
I'm also kinda maybe thinking ahead, i.e. bigger motor, notched towers................ so id rather do it once

Unless  you intend to fit a late model engine there is no need to notch towers, with a Dart block you can make a 302 a 370 and the 351 almost a 460 with 600-700HP on pump fuel. A good 363 Dart windsor Dart 4-1/8" bore block with a 3.4" stroke will make an easy streatable 500hp with off the self parts in a 302 sized package, there is no need to chop the towers out.
 69ish on this forum has a 69 running a basic 408 I built in an F4TE ford 351 truck roller block, it runs high 11's on a the 1/4 and will tow his caravan. Could it go quicker? absolutely but he wanted it to look stock under the hood, have a shaker and tow a caravan which it does, and will cruise all day. With what you can buy off the shelf for a Windsor , fuel injection included, there is no need to hack up the car.
The 363 engine i'm building for mine is running 8 throttle body injection. Its pretty hard to hurt a well built Dart block engine in a fast streeter. Rodney lives on the coast get him to take you for a run in his 408 69, you could have another 50-80 HP in that config with with bigger heads, cam and intake. His torque convert is pretty loose as well. We reused his heads from the previous engine and they are too small in real terms but $ were an issue at the time, but its still a quick car. I'm not an RRS fan I'd go with TCP or similar

[shaunp]

Your original question of whats wrong with it.
things I dont like.
1 unless they have fixed it you loose steering lock, as its based on Holden stuff
2 The rack is based on a GM J car car rack, ie Carima/deawoo, never meant to steer a V8 Mustang but rather a small 4 cylinder car.
3 By deleting the top arm the lower arm, ball joint and low pivot now carry all the weight and thrust, never designed to do that, they weld/rivet a plate to the bottom to stop it bending. The camber bolts work hard in a stock front end let alone now they take extra load.
4 RRS are hard to deal with.
5 Racks in generally limit header choice some what depending design.

Modern cars use struts for the simple reason they are cheaper and quicker to install, a good double wishbone design is best. If you really want an aftermarket setup there are better choices around, Look at what TCP have to offer. Frankly if you want to delete the towers forget strut front end and go with a Mustang II type set up, this is a better option and far more adjustable. But unless you want to put a Coyote in it there is little point in removing the towers. Mustangs drive ordinary in standard config, predominantly because the alignment setting are designed for cross-ply tyres . They simply dont have enough caster, modern cars drive well because they have heaps of caster as they all have power steer. Caster makes the steering heavy. RRS without a heap of caster will also wander and carry on just the same. Modified original stuff tweaked with PS some toe in and 5-8 degree of + caster will drive like a champ. Caster will make them drive straight and not wander. I shim the front bolt on the top are to allow more caster, and centre the wheel in the arch I also shorten the spacer tubes in the caster bar bushes, this locates the lower arm better, you can drop the top arm to improve the camber curve as well.
 

[QIK70]

Your original question of whats wrong with it.
things I dont like.
1 unless they have fixed it you loose steering lock, as its based on Holden stuff
2 The rack is based on a GM J car car rack, ie Carima/deawoo, never meant to steer a V8 Mustang but rather a small 4 cylinder car.
3 By deleting the top arm the lower arm, ball joint and low pivot now carry all the weight and thrust, never designed to do that, they weld/rivet a plate to the bottom to stop it bending. The camber bolts work hard in a stock front end let alone now they take extra load.
4 RRS are hard to deal with.
5 Racks in generally limit header choice some what depending design.

Modern cars use struts for the simple reason they are cheaper and quicker to install, a good double wishbone design is best. If you really want an aftermarket setup there are better choices around, Look at what TCP have to offer. Frankly if you want to delete the towers forget strut front end and go with a Mustang II type set up, this is a better option and far more adjustable. But unless you want to put a Coyote in it there is little point in removing the towers. Mustangs drive ordinary in standard config, predominantly because the alignment setting are designed for cross-ply tyres . They simply dont have enough caster, modern cars drive well because they have heaps of caster as they all have power steer. Caster makes the steering heavy. RRS without a heap of caster will also wander and carry on just the same. Modified original stuff tweaked with PS some toe in and 5-8 degree of + caster will drive like a champ. Caster will make them drive straight and not wander. I shim the front bolt on the top are to allow more caster, and centre the wheel in the arch I also shorten the spacer tubes in the caster bar bushes, this locates the lower arm better, you can drop the top arm to improve the camber curve as well.

Cheers mate!
This is what I've been after. I know theres a massive price difference, but with all these points I've got just a little bit more info than, they are shiny and thats why i want them.
 

[shaunp]

http://www.streetortrack.com/Street-or-Track-Front-Coilover-System-pr-24491.html

http://www.totalcontrolproducts.com/

https://www.maierracing.com/product-category/suspension/front/

[Dingo80]

Does the 70 Stang have a wider engine bay than earlier models? I have a 351W with RHS heads and the clearance to the shock towers is terrible. My headers used to hit and getting to the plugs was a nightmare especially when hot. So I went the RRS route for the notchplates but then (about 8 or so years ago)it seemed better to get the whole package from them plus I thought try and keep it in Australia.

Couple of photos of my trial fit and notch plates. You can see in one what Shaun is talking about with the lower control arm having a plate riveted to it for strength. RRS do a billet one now.

Looking at it now, with all the opinions on forums and the reading I have done, I see the age old people who have installed it like it while others who don't have it don't like it. I can see from an engineering point of view the issues people are saying but for a street car, I can't see them being huge issues. I have looked at how I can improve the setup as I really want to use the notchplates and they are installed but from looking at all the other offerings, then notchplates won't allow install of any suspension with an upper arm. Mustang II suspension seems to be the best solution in my opinion as it is the whole package but there are plenty of offerings out there.

I am going to stick with it and see how it goes when ever my car actually get put back together.

[Dingo80]

One more

[QIK70]

One more

Cheers Dingo!
The engine bay is wider, but the more room the better i think. She has a 302 at the moment, but theres a good chance i'll end up putting a 351 into her.
I had a 65 coupe with a 351W, so i know your pain with the lack of space.

[shaunp]

351 is fine in a 69, or anything post 66 really.

[lukep6470]

Hi,

I have a 67 that I bought with RRS suspension in it.  The only really dislike I have is it can be very jarring over speed bumps or any sort of pothole, etc.  I think they have redesigned the top of the strut since mine was done (First RRS setup engineered in QLD) so that may no longer be an issue.

WRT turning circle the first time I drove the car into a shopping centre car park I completely missed the spot I was aiming for :-).  You quickly adjust but it may be that all early Mustangs have that big of a turning circle anyway.

Mine has over 25000 miles on it and all I have had to do was brake pads (replaced too soon) and grease it.  The rack is holding up fine.  I have heard and seen on this forum if you don't use the RRS PS pump you may blow the seals out of the rack.

I found the handling of the front of the car to be great but the 50yo rear suspension really lets the whole thing down.  My two previous cars were an S2000 and a C32 AMG so maybe my expectations were too high.

[QIK70]

Hi,

I have a 67 that I bought with RRS suspension in it.  The only really dislike I have is it can be very jarring over speed bumps or any sort of pothole, etc.  I think they have redesigned the top of the strut since mine was done (First RRS setup engineered in QLD) so that may no longer be an issue.

WRT turning circle the first time I drove the car into a shopping centre car park I completely missed the spot I was aiming for :-).  You quickly adjust but it may be that all early Mustangs have that big of a turning circle anyway.

Mine has over 25000 miles on it and all I have had to do was brake pads (replaced too soon) and grease it.  The rack is holding up fine.  I have heard and seen on this forum if you don't use the RRS PS pump you may blow the seals out of the rack.

I found the handling of the front of the car to be great but the 50yo rear suspension really lets the whole thing down.  My two previous cars were an S2000 and a C32 AMG so maybe my expectations were too high.

Cheers Luke.
Its interesting the difference of opinions.

[Dingo80]

Hi,

I have a 67 that I bought with RRS suspension in it.  The only really dislike I have is it can be very jarring over speed bumps or any sort of pothole, etc.  I think they have redesigned the top of the strut since mine was done (First RRS setup engineered in QLD) so that may no longer be an issue.

WRT turning circle the first time I drove the car into a shopping centre car park I completely missed the spot I was aiming for :-).  You quickly adjust but it may be that all early Mustangs have that big of a turning circle anyway.

Mine has over 25000 miles on it and all I have had to do was brake pads (replaced too soon) and grease it.  The rack is holding up fine.  I have heard and seen on this forum if you don't use the RRS PS pump you may blow the seals out of the rack.

I found the handling of the front of the car to be great but the 50yo rear suspension really lets the whole thing down.  My two previous cars were an S2000 and a C32 AMG so maybe my expectations were too high.

That's interesting about having to use the power steering pump. I am having heaps of trouble trying to get pulleys to align with vintage air con also. Easiest option I saw was to go a pulley kit that includes a saginaw pump (like the vintage air front runner) as I had trouble getting an old ford pump to align and using the RRS one is a bit hard especially having the remote reservoir just adds another issue. Not sure if it is just the Vintage air compressor bracket but with heaps of messing around I can get a 2 groove crank pulley to be 5mm out but seems enough to throw a belt all the time. Frustrating

I just looked through their website and they don't mention the PS pump has to be used. Just shown as an optional extra?

[USA066]

Whilst you could use the old Ford PS pump, you should use an RRS PS pump, as it ensures correct and consistent fluid pressure to the rack thus delivering smooth steering. And yes, ensures you don't blow the seals. They don't come cheap though, I think mine was around $700 and I am not a fan of the separate reservoir either. I installed the PS pump with Vintage air Sanden compressor using the old PS pump bracket and a new RRS bracket. I used spacers to get it all aligned, and no problem with throwing belts.

[JET445]

I believe a Saginaw pump runs at a much lower pressure than a Ford pump and Saginaws are cheap as dirt. With regards to RRS loading the lower control arm, even though TCP, Street or Track etc have a top control arm they still load the spring onto the lower arm, so probably not much different. By the way I have a RHD RRS rack in my car with standard Ford suspension,only got the car registered last week so have only done a few miles yet but can tell you the turning circle is not great and the rack is quite bulky making exhaust fitment tricky.

[Husky65]

In my research and experience(with the Unisteer power rack), it appears the only two racks that still maintain a good turning circle are the tcp power/manual rack and unisteer power rack. I still noticed a bit of a reduction I think with the Unisteer compared to the borgeson setup I had, but going from others the Unisteer is one of the better ones in terms of turning circles, so I can't really complain. Mine also sits in a great location for headers, and the steering shaft hugs up against the rail and out of the way.

Depends what Saginaw pump also. The chevs usually ran a higher pressure than the fords, so if it's one for them it will most likely be high pressure than ford. However there were saginaw pumps for fords, and you can buy lower pressure ones.

[QIK70]

I believe a Saginaw pump runs at a much lower pressure than a Ford pump and Saginaws are cheap as dirt. With regards to RRS loading the lower control arm, even though TCP, Street or Track etc have a top control arm they still load the spring onto the lower arm, so probably not much different. By the way I have a RHD RRS rack in my car with standard Ford suspension,only got the car registered last week so have only done a few miles yet but can tell you the turning circle is not great and the rack is quite bulky making exhaust fitment tricky.

Mine is LHD and at this stage I don't intend changing it. I wonder if the LHD RRS version is any different?
At this stage I'm leaving the orignal PS unit in it, but we all know how projects go

[shaunp]

I believe a Saginaw pump runs at a much lower pressure than a Ford pump and Saginaws are cheap as dirt. With regards to RRS loading the lower control arm, even though TCP, Street or Track etc have a top control arm they still load the spring onto the lower arm, so probably not much different. By the way I have a RHD RRS rack in my car with standard Ford suspension,only got the car registered last week so have only done a few miles yet but can tell you the turning circle is not great and the rack is quite bulky making exhaust fitment tricky.

TCP arms as do most tubular arms use Chev ball joints which are have always taken the bulk of the load as in old Holden as the spring sits on the lower arm of GM cars, the double wish bone will also likely allow a better camber curve, they have a built arm drop and extra anti drive. Heaps of adjustment  on the top arms

[barnett468]

Coil overs because, well just because..................from all accounts the car will handle better than my FG GT.

Coil overs do not work any better or any worse than a properly set up stock system because the mounting points of the shock are the same.

Rack and pinion on a vintage mustang are also crap.

Saginaw pumps on a mustang with a stock steering system will have nearly zero automatic return to center, This bothers some people but doesn't bother others. Nothing wrong with a canister style stock mustang pump.

[lukep6470]

I will take a photo of my belt setup and post it.  The alignment with the PS pump isn't perfect but it hasn't been an issue.  I have had spare belts and the tools to fit them sitting in my boot for ages in case one gets ground down and breaks but this hasn't happened.

WRT the PS pump you could check with RRS what pressure the rack requires and get a pressure regulator maybe?

I believe you only get a decent turning circle if you use the RRS hub.  They mus have longer arms or something.

My setup is using the stock lower control arms as the modified ones didn't exist when my car was done.

[shaunp]

I will take a photo of my belt setup and post it.  The alignment with the PS pump isn't perfect but it hasn't been an issue.  I have had spare belts and the tools to fit them sitting in my boot for ages in case one gets ground down and breaks but this hasn't happened.

WRT the PS pump you could check with RRS what pressure the rack requires and get a pressure regulator maybe?

I believe you only get a decent turning circle if you use the RRS hub.  They mus have longer arms or something.

My setup is using the stock lower control arms as the modified ones didn't exist when my car was done.

Go get a pump from the wreckers from a Deawoo, that's what the rack is from. But Camira's would have had a Saginaw pump I suspect

[Husky65]

Rack and pinion on a vintage mustang are also crap.

Mine's great 

[shaunp]

Mine's great 

There are racks and there are racks. Flaming river for example will make you car drive like  model T but people buy them cause everyone know that its a rack so therefore it must be better.

[QIK70]

Go get a pump from the wreckers from a Deawoo, that's what the rack is from. But Camira's would have had a Saginaw pump I suspect

So let me get this straight, Gary Meyers, not sure if you've heard of him, who just won Street Machine of the year for the 3rd time. Well known for his passion for the blue oval and making some of the toughest street machines in the country, goes and put a Daewoo Rack on his cars.
This goes the same for the Sidchrome, Street Machine magazine 69 fastback, built by Preston Hire Supercar team, fully equipped with RRS gear.........
Chad McQueen, son of Steve McQueen, builds a Bullit replica and fits all RRS equipment............... but its still no good.........

[Husky65]

So let me get this straight, Gary Meyers, not sure if you've heard of him, who just won Street Machine of the year for the 3rd time. Well known for his passion for the blue oval and making some of the toughest street machines in the country, goes and put a Daewoo Rack on his cars.

Well he put a Hemi in a mustang 

[GEOFF289]

So let me get this straight, Gary Meyers, not sure if you've heard of him, who just won Street Machine of the year for the 3rd time. Well known for his passion for the blue oval and making some of the toughest street machines in the country, goes and put a Daewoo Rack on his cars.
This goes the same for the Sidchrome, Street Machine magazine 69 fastback, built by Preston Hire Supercar team, fully equipped with RRS gear.........
Chad McQueen, son of Steve McQueen, builds a Bullit replica and fits all RRS equipment............... but its still no good.........

I dunno anything about racks, which one is best, or whether you should put one in your car or not but if Gary Myers (not Meyers) put a RRS set up in the truck he uses to transport his Mustang on public roads to the burnout exhibitions etc. its used for it might help your case in this debate. His cars can't be driven legally on the street and if he did he'd be more concerned about seeing where he was going with that twin blower set up sticking up above the roof line than how well it steers. They do have a good turning circle though as the back wheels mostly go sideways. Whether the other examples help your case I couldn't say but I'd think the Street Machine project parts selection would be heavily influenced by commercial  considerations, i.e who would give them a rack set up and maybe some money in return for the exposure.